Posts Tagged ‘cutting-edge treatments’

What seems to work best for which poor responders and women over 40?

Thursday, June 3rd, 2010

This is one of those areas where we’d hope the empirical literature would be able to tell us what works for whom and under what conditions. But unfortunately poor responders and women over 40 – and particularly poor responders over 40 – are a relatively small group and rather neglected in the research (JMHO). So, what can we draw on instead?

This isn’t particularly scientific, but if you look at some of the research that’s been conducted over the years and combine this with informal sources such as the Over 40 High FSH Board‘s Timeline post (click here or search for “timeline” to find the latest) and also the high FSH google stats page, and also based on what I observed (IVF successes and failures) over many years on those high FSH boards, here’s what I concluded:

  1. There didn’t seem to be any pattern about whether the flare protocol, the antagonist protocol, or Mini IVF worked best – it’s basically a crap shoot. You just have to try them and see.
  2. The high stim success cases (live births) were generally women under 40 with a lot of antral follicles. The few over 40 exceptions tended to have higher AFCs (>5).
  3. The VAST majority of over 40 IVF success cases were low stim. [Lots of natural conceptions too, but of course there are many more people ttc naturally than with IVF, so it’s hard to infer whether, say, low stim IVF is more or less effective per cycle than ttc naturally – High FSH specialist Dr. Jerome Check thinks IVF gives high FSHers 2.5 times better odds for that cycle cf ttc naturally in your late 30s and early 40s.]
  4. Often on high stims you can get more follicles and sometimes more eggs retrieved, but the number of embryos generally seemed to be the same from either high or low stim (I’m excluding natural and boost protocols from low stim here). In other words, on high stims you often get more empty follies and/or lower fert rates.
  5. Those of us over 40 gals who’ve tried both high and low stim have quite often seen a difference in eyeballable embryo quality – just one example, but check out my high and low stim embie pics and see for yourself

So … based on what I’ve seen, my conclusions for poor responders/high FSHers/low AMHers were:

  • Under 40 and with OK AFC –> give medium-high stims a try first (say, 450-600IU)
  • Over 40 but a pretty decent AFC (say, consistently >5) OR under 40 with a low AFC –> try medium stims first (225-375IU)
  • Over 40 with a low AFC and FSH not through the roof –> try low stim (75-150IU)
  • Really excessively high FSH or a system that goes wacky with drugs –> go natural (BD or IVF) or try a ‘boost’ cycle (start natural, add tiny 75IU boost IF needed based on monitoring)

Not very scientific, but FWIW, that’s what I concluded in the end (after starting medium/high stim at age 40 and eventually listening to my wise board buddies and Jerome Check – and trying low stim).

Please note that this post is directed at couples and women who do NOT at this point want to consider donor eggs, but want to try and get a handle on what might be the best approach to try with their own eggs.

Other posts of potential interest:

Conflicting expert opinions – how do I know who’s right?

Saturday, April 10th, 2010

So, you finally plucked up the courage to go for a second opinion (see also When and how should I seek a second opinion?) and guess what – now you have two or more well-qualified and plausible experts with compelling arguments telling you to do the exact opposite. Maybe one cites empirical research and another doesn’t; maybe they all cite different research. Maybe one sides with the ‘mainstream’ while the others are mavericks – who’s more credible? Who should you trust?

Here’s a classic example encountered by women in their late 30s and 40s with elevated FSH or low AMH (which means they have diminished ovarian reserve – very few eggs left, on the fast track to early menopause). [This example may not relate to your case specifically, but the reflections about how to deal with it are definitely generalisable.]

Specialist A: Once your Day 2/3 FSH is over [insert cut-off; some say 10, some say 12, some say 15, some say 20] the odds of pregnancy through IVF are so incredibly low that IVF is a waste of time altogether, so we would actually not treat you unless you plan to use donor eggs. Just move on already!

Specialist B: Your FSH is elevated, which means you will be a poor responder to stims (Gonal F, etc) and your odds will be lower than other patients your age. It’s like your ovaries are old and going deaf, so we have to give you a very high dose of stims (i.e. ‘shout’ at your ovaries) to get them to wake up and produce any eggs at all. So, I would recommend we put you on maximum dose stims and see what happens. If that doesn’t work we will try mega mega doses.

Specialist C: Your FSH is elevated, you will be a poor responder, but actually, large doses of stims for women like you will often cause your ovaries to shut down and not respond at all. If they do respond, the dose is so high that you will end up with fried eggs that are unlikely to result in a live birth anyway. No, your ovaries are like an old squeaky violin that has to be coaxed gently into life so that it sings the sweetest tune  it possibly can. I recommend a very low-stim IVF, IUI or TI (timed intercourse) cycle with either very low stims right from the start, or just starting with no stims and letting your own [already elevated] FSH drive follicle growth before adding a ‘tiny boost’ to help things on their way.

Yes, intelligent people do hold different views. The field is still growing and not everything is cut-and-dried (and  actually, never will be). They all have theory and evidence to back their explanations …

Specialist A will cite a ton of empirical research showing the inverse correlation between FSH levels and IVF response (number of eggs produced) and success rates. No argument with that.

Specialist B will cite studies showing that the higher the dose, the more eggs patients produce, and the more eggs you retrieve the higher the success rates. It’s a numbers game.

Specialist C will say ah yes, but what those studies don’t show (but mine do) is that, although you get more eggs from higher stims, in older women and those with high FSH, those eggs are of lower quality, less likely to fertilise, and most importantly, less likely to result in live births.

They are all speaking the truth based on what they have seen and read; they all have evidence and experience to back their claims. So, how do we weigh up conflicting arguments and figure out what makes the most sense for us?

First, let’s talk about the big studies (either randomised experimental trials or retrospective studies) showing that Protocol X works (or, helps) better than protocol Y. These are very important to understand, but what YOU need to consider is not “does it help” on AVERAGE across a large study of all sorts of different women; the real question to have in mind when you read (or, discuss with your dr) such research is WHOM does it help (what age, dx, individual characteristics), and under what conditions? And, will it help ME with my unique constellation of age, treatment history, diagnosis and other characteristics?

There are some aspects of fertility treatment that are so nuanced, unpredictable and idiosyncratic that the reality is NO-ONE is ever going to get “the” answer through large study research. Once you’re past the relatively well-established big picture stuff and trying to individualise protocols based on what you see and what you’ve seen in the past, it’s less about big picture science and hypothesis testing and more about human judgement and pattern recognition.

When we’re in this territory, fertility treatment is less a “science” and more of an “art” or a “craft”. You’re having to trust pattern recognition, judgement, intuition and instincts because the research just isn’t there to the level of detail you’d need to be able to make a call. Also, many of the cutting-edge treatments have no more than a plausible theory and a few success cases; the research needed to fully test them is still in progress or may be years away or may never be done because they help such a small segment of the ttc population – but they may still help (see also New and “untested” treatments). Just about all of my ttc journey was in that murky domain -  I was too specific a mix of age, diagnosis and treatment history for enough large studies to have been conducted to clearly indicate what would work in my case. There were no easy answers – there wasn’t a clear right or wrong because the research out there could only predict what would happen across a large group (that included many women NOT like me), not what would happen in MY case (or cases very similar to mine).

When you’re in instinct and judgement and pattern-recognition territory, the only things you can do are arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can muster, listen to the instincts and judgement of the people who have had more experience with cases specifically like your own, and listen to your own instincts and debate these back and forth with your specialist(s). It’s a crap-shoot, but some people have a knack for this stuff …

Or, the simple version for the example above (please just insert your own dilemma and the answer is likely the same): high stims work for some people; low stims work better for others. Which are you? Well, you won’t know until you try because the studies have been done on a huge range of women, only a fraction of whom are like you in various ways – and none of them are exactly like you. So, research like crazy to try and figure out what seems promising for women and couples most like you, and when it’s still not clear how to choose among various plausible options on your shortlist, go with your gut.

See also: New and “untested” treatments for some thoughts about which new-fangled ideas to consider seriously.

When and how should I seek a second opinion?

Thursday, October 15th, 2009

Suppose you had a friend who was grappling with a cancer diagnosis and kept wondering whether his/her specialist had really considered all the possible treatment angles that might work. Suppose he or she had been receiving some treatment but there hadn’t really been any sign of progress. What would you advise? Probably a second opinion, right?

For some unknown reason, fertility patients seem to struggle with this notion that it’s somehow disloyal to seek a second opinion. Yes, it is awkward. But actually, it’s just good common sense if there’s any little voice inside your head saying “maybe there’s a better way …”  I know several women/couples who have switched specialist within the same clinic and have really agonised over how they are going to “break up with” their initial specialist. But the reality is this happens all the time, and people need to find the fit that’s right for them. My local clinic (FAA) actually makes that transition incredibly smooth and most of the drs are perfectly happy when it happens. [Actually, some may be relieved about getting rid of a “difficult” patient! ;)]

Even if you’re not actually switching specialists, it’s perfectly reasonable to seek out a second opinion if you want to. If you’re publicly funded you may have to pay for the second opinion consult, but that’s money well spent if it’ll give you peace of mind and/or some good ideas that can get you closer to building the family you want.

Remember, just as in any other profession, each individual specialist has certain diagnoses and treatments that they have a particular interest in and more experience in treating. Some gravitate toward the more straightforward cases (early 30s, no tubes, standard protocol, easy success); some specialise in particular issues (endometriosis, PCOS, thyroid problems); some are really passionate about taking on the really challenging cases (women over 40, poor responders, egg quality problems). It’s a good idea to ask around about who’s had success with cases like yours. And that’s a good place to start for a second opinion. Just think, women/couples in the States fly 5 hours from coast to coast seeking a second opinion; we are incredibly lucky that even the other end of the country isn’t that far away! And if travel is really a problem, you can often book a phone consult.

Over the years, one thing I’ve noticed is that the truly professional specialists I’ve spoken to have NO problem at all with my seeking a second opinion. They support my being proactive and are very happy to listen to any ideas I glean from those other consultations. They don’t let egos get in the way of my treatment. While working with my own specialist, I got a copy of all my notes and did a phone consult with a specialist in the States who’s considered the #1 go to guy for women with my particular diagnosis. My specialist in NZ was like nooooo problem – and was very open to the ideas I came back with. We did, of course, have a healthy debate about which of the ideas seemed to make the most sense in my case, but the main thing was that we had that discussion and we made some good decisions together about what to try next.

How do you know you should seek a second opinion?

Well, everyone’s different. For some people, it’s when they’ve just had a failed cycle, they can’t afford to do more than about one more, but the specialist is suggesting just going with the same again. For others, they’ve tried discussing other ideas with their specialist but feel like these aren’t being taken seriously or at least the reasons for not trying these things aren’t being adequately explained. For me, it was feeling like we’d already discussed and tried all the ideas we could think of together, so I needed a fresh perspective, a new source of ideas. Whatever the situation, if there’s a little voice in your head wondering whether you and your specialist have adequately explored all the possibilities, that’s a sign you might want a second opinion. It could just end up confirming what your current specialist is telling you, in which case that’s also useful because it eliminates doubts that you’re doing the right things.

If you think you might want to get a second opinion on your case, here’s what to do:

  1. Get a copy of your notes from the clinic so you know exactly what protocols you have tried already, any testing that’s been done, how you responded to treatment (including E2 levels, follicle sizes, the embryologist’s ratings of embryo quality, etc).
  2. If you can, make a 1-2-page bullet point summary of your history and any testing. This makes it a LOT easier for the new dr to get up to speed quickly on where you are at.
  3. Ask around (e.g. on the Everybody BB’s Infertility forum) to find out which drs at which clinics have had success with your particular diagnosis and history.
  4. Call that dr’s clinic and speak with his/her receptionist; ask for an in-person or phone appointment; ask where and how to send your summary/notes/file.
  5. You don’t have to formally tell your current specialist that you’re seeking a second opinion, but you’ll probably end up informing his/her nurse or receptionist when you request a copy of your file/notes. It’s a courtesy to mention it, but if it’s causing you anxiety then don’t force yourself to. The specialist will understand.
  6. If you are doing a consultation with someone who works at another clinic from your ‘home’ clinic and if you like what they are suggesting as a new plan, discuss with them whether it would be feasible/advisable to (a) ask your current specialist to follow a new protocol; (b) cycle at your local clinic but with the new specialist either calling the shots or providing advice to your own specialist; (c) travelling and doing the whole cycle at the new clinic; or (d) doing egg collection and transfer at the new clinic, but monitoring (ultrasound and bloodwork) locally. All of these options have been done around the country at one time or another.
  7. Don’t worry too much about having to persuade your current specialist to try something new – quite often the specialists will just get in touch with each other and work out how best to work together. Ask your ‘second opinion’ specialist what he/she thinks is the best way to handle this. The politics and the details of this shouldn’t be your problem – you are going through enough stress already!
  8. Don’t worry too much about the ‘disloyalty’ issue either. You have the right to expect specialists (and any healthcare provider, for that matter) to be professional about second opinions and NOT to make you feel guilty about seeking one out. If you find someone is not being particularly professional about it, that tells you more about them than it does about how you handled it. Your priority is to get a baby/family out of this, and their priority should be to help you achieve that dream. The specialists won’t be a part of your life forever, but your babies will!

New and “untested” treatments

Wednesday, September 23rd, 2009

Here’s a topic that comes up for discussion quite a lot.

“My dr won’t let me try X – why not?”

“My doctor talked about the ethics of infertility treatment and how some clinics will try (and charge for) all sorts of unproven treatment where often there was no medical reason for a particular patient to require that unproven treatment.”

The unproven treatment issue is a really interesting one because most medical professionals consider “proven” to mean something supported by multiple randomised controlled trials. The problem is that cutting-edge ideas are new and haven’t had the chance to be sufficiently trialled (or, in some cases, don’t lend themselves to such randomised designs for ethical and/or practical reasons).

So, should all the new ideas be ignored until they are considered “proven”?

Well, here’s how I tackled this dilemma with our doctor. If I’d already tried the standard options and if there was another idea that (a) wasn’t too off the wall, (b) had at least a plausible basis in theory, (c) had some small-scale evidence that it might help and (d) there was no logical reason to think it would hurt, then we’d discuss it and he’d often agree to let us give it a shot.

Of course, there were quite a few things I argued pretty hard on and he just wouldn’t do it because he didn’t think there was sound enough reason. He always explained why and didn’t treat me like an idiot – very important; I think every patient has the right to expect this.

Moral of the story:

  • Do educate yourself about the various options and ideas that might help someone like you
  • Do ask your doctor about them – and take copies of any research papers you can find
  • Do insist your dr explains their rationale for not trying them – or for tweaking them before trying them
  • If, after you listen to the rationale, it still seems to you that your doctor is being overly conservative in not trying something that seems to make sense to you, do seek out a second opinion

When you’ve only got a few shots at something so life-changingly important as conceiving a child, you owe it to yourself to make sure you don’t get to the end of the struggle with regrets and what-ifs. Leave no stone unturned!

See also: