Posts Tagged ‘women over 40’

What seems to work best for which poor responders and women over 40?

Thursday, June 3rd, 2010

This is one of those areas where we’d hope the empirical literature would be able to tell us what works for whom and under what conditions. But unfortunately poor responders and women over 40 – and particularly poor responders over 40 – are a relatively small group and rather neglected in the research (JMHO). So, what can we draw on instead?

This isn’t particularly scientific, but if you look at some of the research that’s been conducted over the years and combine this with informal sources such as the Over 40 High FSH Board‘s Timeline post (click here or search for “timeline” to find the latest) and also the high FSH google stats page, and also based on what I observed (IVF successes and failures) over many years on those high FSH boards, here’s what I concluded:

  1. There didn’t seem to be any pattern about whether the flare protocol, the antagonist protocol, or Mini IVF worked best – it’s basically a crap shoot. You just have to try them and see.
  2. The high stim success cases (live births) were generally women under 40 with a lot of antral follicles. The few over 40 exceptions tended to have higher AFCs (>5).
  3. The VAST majority of over 40 IVF success cases were low stim. [Lots of natural conceptions too, but of course there are many more people ttc naturally than with IVF, so it’s hard to infer whether, say, low stim IVF is more or less effective per cycle than ttc naturally – High FSH specialist Dr. Jerome Check thinks IVF gives high FSHers 2.5 times better odds for that cycle cf ttc naturally in your late 30s and early 40s.]
  4. Often on high stims you can get more follicles and sometimes more eggs retrieved, but the number of embryos generally seemed to be the same from either high or low stim (I’m excluding natural and boost protocols from low stim here). In other words, on high stims you often get more empty follies and/or lower fert rates.
  5. Those of us over 40 gals who’ve tried both high and low stim have quite often seen a difference in eyeballable embryo quality – just one example, but check out my high and low stim embie pics and see for yourself

So … based on what I’ve seen, my conclusions for poor responders/high FSHers/low AMHers were:

  • Under 40 and with OK AFC –> give medium-high stims a try first (say, 450-600IU)
  • Over 40 but a pretty decent AFC (say, consistently >5) OR under 40 with a low AFC –> try medium stims first (225-375IU)
  • Over 40 with a low AFC and FSH not through the roof –> try low stim (75-150IU)
  • Really excessively high FSH or a system that goes wacky with drugs –> go natural (BD or IVF) or try a ‘boost’ cycle (start natural, add tiny 75IU boost IF needed based on monitoring)

Not very scientific, but FWIW, that’s what I concluded in the end (after starting medium/high stim at age 40 and eventually listening to my wise board buddies and Jerome Check – and trying low stim).

Please note that this post is directed at couples and women who do NOT at this point want to consider donor eggs, but want to try and get a handle on what might be the best approach to try with their own eggs.

Other posts of potential interest:

What are the main IVF options for poor responders?

Tuesday, June 1st, 2010

In an earlier post I covered what a high FSH/low AMH reading means, what else to ask for in the way of diagnostic investigation, and the basics about whether this is a ‘no hope’ diagnosis or not.

I’ll talk in this post about the main IVF protocol options for women with high FSH/low AMH/DOR and poor responders, but will be back sometime soon with a post about other lower-cost options for those not willing or able to do [more] IVF.

IVF Protocol Options

OK, first let’s talk about protocols. As I mentioned in the post about the main about IVF protocols used in New Zealand, there are basically three possible protocols that are used for poor responders, and 1. The “long protocol” is NOT one of them. The main options for poor responders are:

2. The microdose flare – usual starting protocol for high FSHers and women over 40. It’s less likely to oversuppress poor responders than the long protocol.

Usually but not always starts with a course of BCPs (birth control pills) for about three weeks, then you stop for a couple of days, then start your microdose course of Buserelin (this gives your ovaries a kickstart or ‘flare’), then a day or two later you start your stims (Gonal F injections). As with the long protocol, you stim for about 10 days with scans and blood tests every 2-3 days. When your follies are ready, you are instructed to take a trigger injection and turn up for egg collection about 36 hours later.

3. The antagonist protocol another option for high FSHers, poor responders and older women. Often the first choice protocol for these women, but in NZ it’s typically tried only after the flare protocol has given a weak response because the drugs are cheaper for the flare.

Usually starts with a mild pre-cycle suppression course of estradiol valerate (E2V) from CD21 or 7dpo the previous cycle (you can ttc on your own the previous cycle; this won’t affect a pregnancy); when AF (your period) arrives this is counted as Day 1 and you may be asked to go in for a baseline scan to check that you have no cysts, your antral follicles are ready to go and no big dominant follicles; on CD2 you start stimming, having bloods and scans every 2-3 days. When your lead follicle reaches 14mm, you start Cetrotide (the antagonist that stops you ovulating too soon). When your follies are ready, you are instructed to take a trigger injection and turn up for egg collection about 36 hours later.

4. The Modified Colorado protocol (a.k.a. The “Wellington”)

“As an adjunct to standard IVF or TER for patients with recurrent implantation failure who have had no problems identified following a recurrent implantation failure screen. The Wellington is a treatment that in theory will improve the lining of the uterus to aid implantation of the embryo.”

Stim Options

OK, having discussed with your specialist which protocol to try first – and don’t forget to ask what he/she would try next if the first one works very poorly! – the next question to discuss is what to use to stimulate your ovaries. The usual default is to start with straight Gonal F; if that doesn’t work well, you might raise the possibility of adding something else as well. The options are:

  1. Straight Gonal F (or Puregon) – this is pure FSH
  2. Combination of Gonal F (or Puregon) and Luveris (pure LH)
  3. Combination of clomiphene (Clomid) and Gonal F or Puregon

Dose Options

There are two diametrically opposed schools of thought among specialists when it comes to how to treat poor responders. They are basically:

1. SHOUTING: High FSH means your ovaries do not respond well to IVF stim drugs. It’s like having ovaries that are hard of hearing when it comes to stim drugs’ message, so the best strategy is to shout at them very loudly (i.e. give you a high dose of stims). This might just get you an extra egg or two. IVF is a numbers game, so more eggs improve your odds.

2. Coaxing: Women with high FSH often have eggs that are more fragile, especially if they are ‘older’ as well. High doses of stims simply ‘fry’ those eggs. If you have high FSH/low AMH, you are going to be a poor responder, so it’s a waste of time going after quantity; the best strategy is to go for quality. You can’t actually improve egg quality per se, but you can avoid damaging eggs with high doses of stims by using very low stim protocols. ‘Low stim’ usually means 75-150IU/day. [I’ll write more sometime about the details of some interesting low-stim protocols used overseas.]

Which of these makes more sense for you? Well, the body of research is building but still hasn’t yielded a definitive answer. My own observations over several years (talking to high FSH women and watching who achieved success and who didn’t, plus reading the empirical research) have been that the only high FSH successes on high stim IVF seem to be women under the age of 40. The vast majority of high FSH IVF successes over age 40 seem to be low stim (with a few exceptions). Younger women with high FSH can also do well on low stims. This isn’t scientific research; just my own observations based on a lot of cases I have known about internationally.

Having said that, the New Zealand definition of ‘max stims’ (usually 300IU) is actually more like ‘medium stims’ internationally. In the States, ‘high stim’ generally means 600IU or more, and there are (believe it or not) some total egg-frying protocols that crank it all the way up to 900IU.

My own hunch is that if you are under 40 OR if you have a reasonably decent antral follicle count, consider giving 300IU (or 450IU) a shot. But if that doesn’t get you decent numbers or,  if embryo quality looks poor, consider a switch to low stim for your next try.

If you’re self-pay, there’s a cost advantage to low stims as well.