What seems to work best for which poor responders and women over 40?

This is one of those areas where we’d hope the empirical literature would be able to tell us what works for whom and under what conditions. But unfortunately poor responders and women over 40 – and particularly poor responders over 40 – are a relatively small group and rather neglected in the research (JMHO). So, what can we draw on instead?

This isn’t particularly scientific, but if you look at some of the research that’s been conducted over the years and combine this with informal sources such as the Over 40 High FSH Board‘s Timeline post (click here or search for “timeline” to find the latest) and also the high FSH google stats page, and also based on what I observed (IVF successes and failures) over many years on those high FSH boards, here’s what I concluded:

  1. There didn’t seem to be any pattern about whether the flare protocol, the antagonist protocol, or Mini IVF worked best – it’s basically a crap shoot. You just have to try them and see.
  2. The high stim success cases (live births) were generally women under 40 with a lot of antral follicles. The few over 40 exceptions tended to have higher AFCs (>5).
  3. The VAST majority of over 40 IVF success cases were low stim. [Lots of natural conceptions too, but of course there are many more people ttc naturally than with IVF, so it’s hard to infer whether, say, low stim IVF is more or less effective per cycle than ttc naturally – High FSH specialist Dr. Jerome Check thinks IVF gives high FSHers 2.5 times better odds for that cycle cf ttc naturally in your late 30s and early 40s.]
  4. Often on high stims you can get more follicles and sometimes more eggs retrieved, but the number of embryos generally seemed to be the same from either high or low stim (I’m excluding natural and boost protocols from low stim here). In other words, on high stims you often get more empty follies and/or lower fert rates.
  5. Those of us over 40 gals who’ve tried both high and low stim have quite often seen a difference in eyeballable embryo quality – just one example, but check out my high and low stim embie pics and see for yourself

So … based on what I’ve seen, my conclusions for poor responders/high FSHers/low AMHers were:

  • Under 40 and with OK AFC –> give medium-high stims a try first (say, 450-600IU)
  • Over 40 but a pretty decent AFC (say, consistently >5) OR under 40 with a low AFC –> try medium stims first (225-375IU)
  • Over 40 with a low AFC and FSH not through the roof –> try low stim (75-150IU)
  • Really excessively high FSH or a system that goes wacky with drugs –> go natural (BD or IVF) or try a ‘boost’ cycle (start natural, add tiny 75IU boost IF needed based on monitoring)

Not very scientific, but FWIW, that’s what I concluded in the end (after starting medium/high stim at age 40 and eventually listening to my wise board buddies and Jerome Check – and trying low stim).

Please note that this post is directed at couples and women who do NOT at this point want to consider donor eggs, but want to try and get a handle on what might be the best approach to try with their own eggs.

Other posts of potential interest:

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4 Responses to “What seems to work best for which poor responders and women over 40?”

  1. rosie says:

    I have recently married for the second time. I have a 21 year old daughter and an 18 year old son. My husband is in a wheelchair and we are going through the IVF journey currently. My husband is nearly 28 and I am 45 so my daughter has volunteered to donate an egg for us.
    I have found it very hard to find others in this sort of situation where my daughter is going to be the donor, I am alot older and my husband is disabled.
    Has anyone else been through similar IVF treatment and can they offer any words of advice to us?
    It would be great to hear from others with similar issues and questions to discuss things with.
    Thanks

  2. Eve says:

    Rosie, I am not aware of anyone in NZ who is in that boat. The biggest DE support board I know of is http://www.network54.com/Forum/57451/, although most of the women on there are US-based and using anon donors. Still, there are a lot of them, so you never know, there may be someone with a daughter as a donor. There is a poster called Pook who was planning to do own-eggs IVF with her quadraplegic husband (she was posting on the Over 40 High FSH Board for a while) but I am not sure where they are at right now.

    But please also check out the Donor Egg Cycle thread on the Everybody BB’s Infertility forum. There are a heap of kiwi women undergoing DE-IVF there and they are a very supportive group.

    Good luck in your journey!!
    Eve

  3. jackie says:

    Hi Eve

    I am 43 years old and never been pregnant. My fsh is 9 and my amh is 18pmol/l. Sperm count normal. sonogram normal. I am looking at using my own eggs. My RE recommends Puregon 250 per day along with 225 Menopur to start?

    What do you think?

  4. Elizabeth says:

    Hi Jackie,

    I’m not a dr, of course, and the reality is that it’s really hard to say when you’ve never tried stims before. You can see (above) my hunches based on what I saw while I was trying (alongside a lot of other women over 40 with high FSH).

    Over 450IU is a pretty high dose, but it may be worth a shot in your case. If you don’t get a great response, though, I would ask about trying a lower dose just to see.

    Also, be sure to join one of the support boards so you can cycle alongside other women doing the same thing. It helps a lot!

    Good luck!!
    Eve

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